I'm talking with Nairye atm, and revising what he finds disagreable with the wiki page... You're editing it, so I'm taking you like the idea? If you could, it would nice if you could talk him into seeing the potential of such a page
I've noted your message-to-self you've left in the revision history, and I see very clearly where you're going with this. I don't want this to be an editing war, so lets settle on a compromise instead of making this a constante, passive-aggressive game.
Yes, the wiki page is fairly barebones in material, but it's to grow beefy as time moves along. Right now it's in an ugly phase of disagreement on how it's all to be sorted, and what you have planned about putting in an axes is nice, but then tears into what makes a character offensive/deffensive.
Also, all that was put down was not made up, and carefuly modified (not really) from a template used for all fighting games to match the unique characteristics of some SSF2 characters. I'll admit, there are better ways to categories SSF2 characters, but what I have down is suitable enough for now.
All I'm asking here is that we colab on this, (as I like how our ideas are so easily meshable), and can perfect an already lopsided page. As I'm hoping to make this another highly useful page for everyone to use, and I want it to sharp and ready for use ASAP.
I have already noted that the page has been pretty much plagiarized from the other Smash Bros wiki. When I have some real time, I'll go over it again and actually do some real work on it. Still, there are a few things that are immediately off. Super Armor is not a real character archetype, for instance.
True true... but there's not much else to change, as it's basicaly the same game at its core. And wording they use is really as simplified/definitioned as it gets.This the page, right? Link
But the template, it's made universaly for all 2D fighting games, as they're essentially the same game mechanics but with different sprites and moves. Very rarely do you ever need to modify it, and that's only when there's outliers, like in SSF2. Link
Yeah, Idk what I was thinking with the super amor, wind box, etc.... It seemed fine when I made it, then again, it was late and I just wanted to finish typing the rest of the page.
But now I see what can be made from the page, and I want to overhaul it and make it the central page to sort characters attributes/archetypes, combining the two. But this games characters are a lot more flexible, though. So it's going to be a challenge to make it all work, but with time and persistence, It shall be completed for sure.
I'd say that each character has a "class" based on their attributes (jack, fragile speedster, mighty glacier, glass cannon, stone wall, etc.), a strategy (rushdown, zoner, turtler, grappler, etc.), and a behavior (offensive, defensive, dynamic).
That seems to fit the bill quite nicely. As, I don't like the idea of this being a scavenger hunt to find all the attributes that fit a character. Rather, have the attributes be sorted (like you said) into its respected classes to make it easier for viewers to distinguish the characteristics they are looking for.
But I'm a little iffy on the stand-alone behavior class, and think it would be cool to split the sub classes inside of the behavior class to make it even easier to sort and also improve its overall accuracy.
Kinda like having 3 big zip-lock bags with some medium bags inside and outside the big ones. While having minature bags inside of those medium bags.
Would you mind if I made a section dedicated to the history of the official SSF2 Discord server? It was a huge issue in our communities past, and I'd like to elaborate its intricacies here on the Wiki. While also educating newcomers all about its history and what it does and how it operates.
I think you already saw I've been updating music tracks on stages pages while also adding a tournament legality section. I'm not expert on that ambit, though, so I've been leaving them with an incomplete tag, this is something I have to entrust to you so I wish you could handle this. While heading to this message wall, I saw some statistics for SSF1 characters on your page, are you planning doing hard data for that game as well?
I think mine has to be at 2 so that I don't get 4 stocked by parents, but i think 4 or 4:30 is a good time. And by then, it should be in top 8 and if any of the top 8 people have to play their matches I'll prob just let them do that and come back to play their matches.
I was talking to Tlord earlier and he said not many people are going to enter either tournament because they are both so close in time(a tournament should normally take at least 5 hours, according to him), maybe I should move it to Sunday just to give Smash Island the hype that it needs.
It usually takes about 3 days to do all of the hard-data things with each character, though I'm generally a bit lazy, hence why updates are slower. Once Beta comes out, things will go faster, since the groundwork has already been laid out for most characters.
I will likely finish the characters by the end of summer. Assuming the game is released by then, I'll just continue at it with the beta info. I think I'll start by updating the existing characters first, then do the new guys. I might wait a couple weeks though, in case any crippling bugs show up that absolutely need to be patched. .DAT files keep track of their last modified date, so I will be able to tell when a character gets modified.
Yeah same here. Actually testing out the game, knowing a chracter's attributes and knowing what character goes where in a certain cateogary gives us more of a reason to play the game while also helping us understand the strengths and weaknesses of the character.
Smash Island was pretty fun/successful. It's just a shame that I threw my set against FkH, because I really should've won that. I was up a full stock in game 2 and got him down to his final stock when I hit the alt key and got control-locked. If that didn't happen, I would've moved on, defeated tlord as always, and gotten a guaranteed top 3 spot. Instead, I totally lost my flow and lost to NastyNinja in losers, getting 9th.
But yeah, it was fun, and a decent number of players showed up.
Well, yeah, but we're about to get so much more when Beta releases. Like, a lot of people right now are holding out until Beta because they discovered the game with Beta already right around the corner.
Honestly, this community needs some new blood to keep the meta interesting and shake up the player hierarchy a bit. I mean, we had Axe and Gax just show up from out of nowhere and start kicking ass, so more people like them would be nice.
Yeah. When Beta releases, those people will emerge from obscurity and enter the limelight. Now that the game possesses the tools needed for smooth offline play, the game can start attracting a real audience.
What? It's just people need to find others who are willing to give people a chance. I don't think some people will be willing to give this game a competitive chance and the people who will, they tell me they get bored of it.
We will see about that since some people are already doing that.
They're bored of it because the meta has stagnated because no one is willing to put in the time/effort needed to really push the limits yet.
Also, one of the biggest turn-offs for the outsiders is the lack of native controller support. With the new controller settings in Beta, it will be much easier to, say, host offline tournaments, because the hassle of having to deal with controller configurations has been resolved.
Oh yeah do you think we should put an origin section on all move sets and items, even for characters in the main games because smashwiki already has the section. This would mostly lead to us copying and pasting from their pages.
-You also use better characters. Samus is an uphill battle against most of the top tiers. Sure, she can gradually grind them down over time, but one slip-up and she's dead at 70%. I'd say most MUs are beatable, but it is very difficult to keep cool long enough to pull off the win consistently.
-Currently I've been borderline psychotic about the new Battlebots season. If you've got a proxy, I suggest going to ABC's streaming site and watching it. It's totally insane now.
-Their is no such things as PERVS.
-I'd say it's a good idea, as long as the move origins go on the individual move pages. The main character pages are cluttered enough as-is.
>.> what? The only top tier character I used against you was Fox while the others, Link, Mario and Chibi are around Samus on the tier list so you can throw that john out the window. You also tried to use Mk at one point so yep. Hell I haven't used Fox against you in a long ass time. She can grind them down over time, what? Get out.
I am interested in my platform games.
That was lame doing that and you should feel ashamed of yourself you PERV.
I meant on the move set and item pages of course, I know how cluttered the character pages are.
Well I updated my character page to include my mind set and how I do counter picks based on a character's surivial endurance attributes.
My Sheik fighting a Samus doesn't really sit well for me with Sheik's main horizontal KO moves and edge guard gimping not being that much effective against Samus. I do know Sheik's vertical KO moves to deal with floaties and below aver fallers, but I will just stick with characters I have chosen for Samus.
if you ever do find yourself in a Sheik-Samus situation, the best option is to pick stages with smaller edge-to-boundary size, such as Dream Land, Smashville, and Tower of Salvation, so that Sheik can KO Samus easier with the fair offstage. Emphasis on those last two, because they also have those extra platforms over the edge that Sheik can use to chase offstage Samus. Samus can't do a whole heck of a lot when recovering, so attacking when she drops the first bomb is the most optimal time, because Samus must either drop a second bomb or risk losing too much vertical height to recover. Repeat as needed until she's dead.
If Mirror Chamber or Warioware are legal, PICK THEM. The MU is very close to a guaranteed win for Sheik on those stages, as they both have tiny boundaries, Samus can't zone properly on WarioWare, and her recovery is nullified by Mirror Chamber's short offstage zone. Plus, in any tournament where these stages are legal, Samus will be forced to strike these two stages, giving you a clear advantage with CP stage.
Yeah. There's not a whole heck of a lot Samus can really do, so I've gotta use her limited tools in increasingly more random-seeming/creative ways in order to remain even vaguely competitive. It's difficult because she has such a hard time because she can't approach at all, can barely combo/punish, and, unless I abuse CSG, can barely kill. It's impossible to fish for kills because they are so easy to punish if missed, so she can't just throw out moves like say, Sheik could. It seems that most of Samus' attacks have at least 10 frames of endlag.
Have you guys considered using the chat to continue your conversation? the last messages do not seem to have something to do with character attributes and 68 message (as of this post) seems to much at this point.
I'd still would recommend you to use the chat because this is simply getting excessive, what I'm trying to tell you is that you should no longer keep posting here, because, as far as it concerns, message walls are only to notify users about something or to ask stuff regarding sources, this is going like a forum discussion, and guess what? Wikia has a forum system. So certainly it would be better if this conversation is taken either to a chat or a wiki forum functionality (one of you has to start it and let the chat start there). But just sayin'.
Honestly, it's not a terrible term, but it is still a bit misleading. "Accelerated falling speed" is a somewhat arbitrary measure based on "how fast character X falls from Y height in Z seconds". If the height is changed, the values and rankings can fluctuate; shorter height means that characters with high gravity will do better, while taller height means that characters with high max falling speed will do better. Hard data, on the other hand, does not fluctuate, which makes it better for more than just loose categorizations.
That being said, the article doesn't really need to go into specifics, so accelerated falling speed will suffice. I may suggest, however, that a secondary axis is added. There is the possibility of characters that have low accelerated falling speed and high survivability due to their high gravity, as well as some characters with high accelerated falling speed and low survivability. I find that survivability is mostly based on weight and gravity, while comboability is based on falling speed.
"His fast falling speed also hinders his recovery, and the fast acceleration of it makes him vulnerable to chain throws from characters like Pikachu who can chain throw him from low percentages to a KO."
It made me think of doing a chain grabbing video for this demo on all of the characters Pikachu can down throw chain grab at a certain percentage.
If you look at some of the characters, you will see that some of percentage requirements before they can be chain grabbed consistently.
If you skip to 3:43, You will see him talk about King Dedede, that you have to chain grab him in a really weird way.
However, it turns out, that he has the higest normal falling speed in the game. If you watch the video, you will see that by stated by him, that Fox and Sheik are easier to chain grab, despite being lower than him on the falling speed list.
So I got confused, but I still put characters into their certain categories due to my testing of game play. Then one day, someone told me to check the formula values and then I realized where I missed something or I forgot. If you look at the gravity list for Brawl, you will see Sheik and Fox are at the top, which made me realize that's why those two are the easiest to chain grab.
Decided to make a break to give you some room to breath, but yeah, this helped me decide on how Dedede, despite having the higest regular falling speed, didn't fit into fast faller category due to his Gravity for Brawl being only 18.
You might ask, do all characters with a high gravity can be put into fast faller terms. Well no, if you look at Bowser, who has high gravity, but his falling speed is twenty.
Although, MK can be chain grabbed, despite having the same normal falling speed value and having a slighly lower gravity value then Bowser. Chain grabbing is weird.
This isn't also exclusive to Brawl.
If you look at Melee, you will also see similar results.
So when I did the values, multiplied Fox's falling speed with his Gravity. I ended up getting .32 for the calculation. He is the only one to be in the .30s.
I did the same for Sheik, where she ended up with .22. However, I did the same for Wolf and he got .23, which is higher than Sheiks, but he still has to be chain grabbed in a weird way when compared to Sheik, which I am not sure why.
It might be his character model or something, but I am not sure. Though these findings helped me to get a better understanding of how combo'ing and chain grabbing works in smash.
WTF is with those "descriptions" on the special moves section on fighter pages? this is not the first time that happens. You are not supposed to joke on pages, are you copying and pasting this from somewhere else, right?
When it's ass o'clock in the morning and I realize that there is no special move text to copy over to data tables, the last thing I want to do is even more work. I figured after the umpteenth time I did it, someone would realize that maybe someone ought to finish the move descriptions on each fighter page before I get to them, because a simple list of the move names is not gonna cut it.
This is something I decided to bring it to you, now with alternate music on stage it means recounting the tracks on the pages. I've been considering adding the row on the stage infobox to add the names, however, I don't know if this means removing the Music section from the pages or just expand it with the row being a complement, what do you think? give me your opinion about what we should do.
Please tell me some of your edits are not done just because, let's say, you want to earn badges. I saw on your page history that you remove and add back some dots on the WIP paragraph, unless that has a meaning for your work, I don't see why you have to do that.
That being said, having a badge for updating for an entire year on a daily basis is not okay. I'm currently ~45 days in and hope that I don't accidentally forget to update one day and lose all that progress, because that would suck hardcore.